The Panel Discussion is a new feature I would like to do every month.
The idea is to throw out an interesting question to a group of people (some of the most interesting and intelligent people I know) and post the response for everyone to see.
The question is then open to everyone reading the blog, who can respond with a comment for all to see.
Thanks to Hatter, Chad, and Juan for taking part in this months discussion. Anyone reading this who loves to talk about this kind of stuff and would like to be featured in next months post, email me!
Here’s the question I presented to them and now to you:
The idea of a magic pill or substance that is highly successful in inducing lucid dreams is a popular thought in the lucid dreaming community. One only needs to look at lucid dream forums to find discussions of this type constantly creeping up, as people ask about the same substances over and over – like Vitamin B6 and Calea Zacatechichi, hoping to find something that works for them.
Despite some success reported with these substances for inducing vivid dreams, increasing dream recall, and even inducing lucid dreams, it seems we are a long way off from something that is reliable at producing lucid dreams with the pop of a pill.
However, as advances in neuroscience and medicine are continually applied for less-than-medicinal reasons (smart drugs / nootropics), do you think a real lucid dreaming pill is an inevitable development?
Does that thought immediately excite you or actually disgust you?
Furthermore, do you think certain psychoactive substances (DMT, for example) could already said to be a lucid dreaming “pill”?
Juan responds:
I think DMT is the closest thing to a ¨pill¨ that we have discovered so far. Science has known for a long time that DMT is in practically everything organic in some concentration including our own pineal glands. DMT is produced when we are born and when we die which has led many to call it The Spirit Molecule.
More studies with DMT have led to the discovery that during lucid dreaming and out of body and mystical states of consciousness the brain is flooded with DMT. I don´t think it is a stretch to say at this point that DMT is lucidity. Or worded differently, normal levels of DMT in our bloodstream allow us to experience our true multidimensional nature in which we are aware of our simultaneous existence in multiple states of consciousness facilitating the knowing that we are all one.
When children are born they have normal levels of DMT in their bloodstream and all children talk to plants, animals, imaginary friends and even tell us about their journeys to other worlds which most adults all too readily dismiss as pure imagination.
It is possible that we do not need any ¨pill¨ for lucidity. Could it be that our normal state of awareness when we are born is full lucidity due to the DMT already present in our brains? It makes me wonder because children seem to be in a state that would be defined as enlightenment or illumination by mystics and yogis alike, but most adults would rather medicate them than try to understand them. Isn´t this the same thing that scientists have done to the shamans too? Instead of trying to understand their accounts of journeys to other worlds with DMT rich plants such asayahuasca, they dismiss them as mentally impaired savages.
Maybe the problem we face is that there are too many non-lucidity inducing pills already available on every corner such as prescription drugs, antidepressants, alcohol, cigarettes and processed foods which have dropped our vibratory rates to such a low level that we have forgotten who we are and why we came here and made us lose touch with our true spiritual nature.
The really interesting part about this to me is that even today science knows that all of these non-lucidity pills actually cause a hardening of the pineal gland (similar to the calcification of arteries which are caused by many of the same substances) which leads to production of less and less DMT in our brains.
Mad Hatter (from Dreaming to Infinity blog) Responds:
I think that question’s answer really depends on what you believe lucid dreaming to be. If you consider it to be completely contained within the brain, then I’d say yes, it’s inevitable that science will figure out the formula to trigger whatever needs to be triggered. If you believe that dreaming comes from somewhere else, and that the brain is merely the receiver or the tuning instrument, then perhaps science won’t quite ever be able to get it right. Right now I’m uncertain which I believe, but my bet would be that science figures out some method for accomplishing it.
Does that thought immediately excite you or actually disgust you? Why?
A little of both, honestly. I think dreaming holds so much potential that everybody should be able to experience it and utilize it in their life. However, I believe the value is also lessened if you don’t have to work for it or learn to control it. You lose something when you take away the path to becoming lucid and just get the end result.
Furthermore, do you think certain psychoactive substances (DMT, for example) could already said to be a lucid dreaming “pill”?
I’m unsure. Having not tried any of these substances I don’t really have the experience necessary to really make that call. I would say that I believe these substances might be useful for the same type of uses as dreaming, but I’m not sure the end result is the same.
Chad Responds:
Let me start by saying that I am by no means an expert on dreaming drugs. In all my years of lucid dreaming research I have not employed the standard oneirogens such as Vitamin B6 and others. The chemical research I have done has been with the dreaming possibilities of hallucinogenic drugs such as LSD, Psylocibin, and DXM. I have avoided other, more standard drugs due to skepticism. Conflicting reports seem to show that a lucidity inducing drug is still far away. I also tend to think the placebo effect is responsible for a great deal of success reports with these drugs.
I would be among the first to purchase such a lucidity-inducing drug if it were ever to be perfected. Some see chemically induced experiences as being unnatural or not as meaningful as experiences that occur ‘naturally’, but I am not one of them. I firmly believe that science has given and will continue to give the psychonaut a powerful arsenal for self-exploration.
I do not think that substances, such as DMT, can be considered authentic lucidity inducing drugs. Such drugs are no doubt a powerful means to inducing visionary experiences but not necesarily the experience we call lucid dreams. I have observed, and often remarked upon, the similarity between psychedelic experiences and the lucid dream, and I believe the two to be closely related. It has been one of my experimentation goals to explore this relationship further. Below I list two experiments that I have performed and may be repeated by the interested explorer. I have achieved great results with both experiments. They can be repeated and different results gained each time. The prerequisites for the experiments vary but are mostly concerned with prior psychedelic and lucid experiences.
Experiment 1 (Down The Rabbit Hole)
1. Set up lucidity. Practice lucidity induction method of choice. Remind yourself to do the drug experiment once lucid.
2. Upon attaining lucidity, create/find a pill that ‘contains’ LSD or a similar drug
3. Take the pill
4. Keep a close eye on mind/dream interaction – how the two influence each other during the experiment
5. If you want to get more in depth, try creating your idea of a perfect atmosphere in which to conduct the experiment before taking the pill.
6. Try to remain focused on lucidity. This might become difficult as the dream/psychedelic experience strengthens, especially as tripping often raises the question as to whether one is dreaming or not.
7. As always, record results. If you’ve never taken hallucinogens, what was the experience like? If you have taken hallucinogens before, did your dream experience simulate your waking experience? To what degree?
Experiment 2 (Lucid Brainwash)
1. Obtain an audio format lucid induction program. You can use a self-hypnosis CD or make a tape yourself. For my version of this experiment I used a 30 minute lucidity-trance induction tape I got from the Lucidity Institute.
2. Set up your room / area where you are going to be taking your trip. Make sure the CD or tape is ready to go, sound level ok, something comfy to lay on while listening, etc.
3. Ingest goodly amount of hallucinogen of your choice.
4. Wait until the drug starts having a strong effect – then lay down comfortably and start the audio program. This is best done in the dark or in very dim lighting.
5. Put the CD on repeat or make sure to rewind the tape. Listen to this, while relaxed, as many times as you can make yourself do so. Just relax. Don’t try to do anything. You’re just letting your brain soak up the instructions.
Good luck and good dreaming! If you decide to try either of these experiments I would love to hear about your results. You can reach me at my MySpace page: www.myspace.com/oneironaught
What do you think about the idea of a lucid dreaming? Will it ever happen? Is it inherently a flawed idea? Where does DMT fit into all this, if at all? I would like to open this discussion up to all my readers. What do you think?